Rap Music, and the Discussion of It

[Original Sin]

It's actually "A Bay Bay".
But it is a HORRIBLE song. You shouldn't judge rap by that crap.

Sorta like how you shouldn't judge metal by, oh I dunno...slipknot, I suppose. Mainstream of almost any genre is pretty lame.
Granted, I don't mind slipknot, but they're certainly not anywhere near the best of....well, anything.

slipknot isn't metal
slipknot is like, hard rock or something
now, devin townsend, that's some good metal

Just because it's not GOOD metal doesn't mean it isn't metal...there are plenty of things much lighter than slipknot that are classified as metal.
Iron Maiden, for example....by todays standards, not what you'd call ZOMG HEAVY, but still defenitely metal. Not all metal is brutal and indescernable, especially if you venture outside the US.

[elcuebee]

Iron Maiden is far more metal than slipknot, even with it being older.

I can't really put it into words, but Slipknot, with the exception of their latest album, doesn't come off as metal to me at all.

[danc1005]

Cu is metal.

[Original Sin]

See, metal is sort of an abstract thing. Iron Maiden isn't nearly as heavy or dark as Slipknot...but is pretty much unanimously concidered metal. I think it's more a matter of respect than technicality.
On that same train of thought, there are a lot of bands that use the same techniques as Slipknot, that are concidered metal...why? Well, because pretty much everyone hates slipknot, so to insult them, they say 'They're not metal!!!'
Metal, like Punk, seems to be an acquired honor..you can try and claim it, but really it's your fans that give it to you.

[hascoolnickname]

Err, no? If you look at the other artists at the time, Maiden was definitely metal. Just because their sound didn't evolve as the rest of the genre did, doesn't change a thing. The exact same thing can be said about punk. After 30 years you bet the sound has changed

[Original Sin]

I never said Maiden isn't metal, by any stretch. I'm a huge Iron Maiden fan. But, even during that time, there were much heavier bands. Celtic Frost emerged in early to mid 80's, and were of the death metal style...growled vocals, heavy guitars, etc. Then, even in the early 80's you've got Venom, Bathory, etc with black metal....
So, is was/is Iron Maiden metal? Of course it was. But, even for it's time, it was no where near the heaviest, 'most metal' thing on the scene....same as Slipknot is not the heaviest, best, whatever thing we have now. Difference being....well, people actually like Iron Maiden, so no one's questioning their title of metal, because they respect them.

[hascoolnickname]

If they aren't metal what are they? If people are set on categorizing bands into genres then you should probably have some ground rules as to how they fit into a specific sound. Just because I don't respect someone doesn't change the way they're playing their instrument. Not saying they are metal either, just saying.

[Original Sin]

I'm not the one claiming they aren't metal, nor am I one to gripe much about genres in most cases.
So, what is most modern metal (and some old metal)? Typically double bass, heavy drumming....Distorted guitars, often utilizing tremolo picking. Growled or distorted vocals are often (but not always) the case.


Slipknot utilizes all of these (at least in their latest album, which is what I'm basing this on). Furthermore, the actual music (chords, scales, etc) they use are closer to metal than rock....the difference being, most rock music (I'm talking guitar, because that's what I play) utilizes a sound closer to blues, while metal often uses classical scales or riffs for that 'darker' tone.

Musically speaking, they're metal, albeit watered down for mass marketability. The musical techniques are all there, but they're certainly not a shining example of what 'metal' is or can be. Which, commercially speaking, turned out pretty well for them....with all the radio airplay, the tours, the merchanise, major albums, etc.... that's all publicity most GOOD metal bands don't get....why? Because you're not gonna hear it on the radio, and thus, most people don't know, or care, to support it.

[danc1005]

The only reason music is played on the radio is because rich record labels push songs onto radio stations by bribing the owners. DJs have no artistic freedom (nor would I trust most DJs' choices). They are paid to play a song over and over again, knowing that if a person hears a song enough, without realizing it, they're going to start to like it/want to hear it again.

[Potter]

The only reason music is played on the radio is because rich record labels push songs onto radio stations by bribing the owners. DJs have no artistic freedom (nor would I trust most DJs' choices). They are paid to play a song over and over again, knowing that if a person hears a song enough, without realizing it, they're going to start to like it/want to hear it again.

its called radio plugging, it was a big chapter in the social psychology of music I finally finished reading a while ago

[elcuebee]

Just wanted to say that this is not ALWAYS true;

I used to be a DJ for a local radio station, and I had pretty much free reign of whatever I wanted to play...

...as long as I played six or seven songs every shift (about a two-three hour period) for sure.

Also, I wanted to note something that i thought of today in regards to metal;

A lot of people who listen to metal say that "you can't understand what they're saying" and "it's all screaming" so thus it sucks.

I just wanted to say, if you're one of those people who say that metal sucks because you can't understand what they're saying, I hope to god you don't listen to any J-pop or foreign music in a language you can't understand, because you would be a massive hypocrite.

At least in the screaming it's in english so you have a CHANCE of knowing what it says.

I bring that up because I know so many people who are complete otaku and listen to nothing but 12 year old girls singing pop from Japan in Japanese, which they can't understand at all besides "baka" and "konnichiwa", yet they say metal sucks because they can't understand it.

To me personally, what makes a song "metal" or not is the energy it provides, not the lyrics.

If a song makes me want to just seriously jump up on the couch, slam my fists into the ceiling, and headbang like crazy, jump off the couch and do a roll and play an imaginary guitar, run back onto my DDR pad and blow out 15 steps a second, run to my van and drive it off a cliff;

then that's a heavy metal song to me. (Aka most of Devin Townsend's work.)

speedcore does the same thing to me, except two-fold, so I couldn't consider it metal of course, but for high-energy music like heavy metal and speedcore, the more energy it gives off, the better i like it.

It's gotta be "focused" too; slamming the drumset down the stairs is not focused energy, again, m1dy, devin townsend, arch enemy, trivium, the berserker, quattro, venetian snares, are all good examples of "focused" energy.

[Original Sin]

As for the radio, it depends on which station, who owns it, etc. Some radio stations have more artistic freedom than others...but yes, most simply play what they're told to play.

As for metal, I suppose I should clarify. I'm a huge metal fan, so I'm not trying to bash it in any way. Hell, I play in a metal band, and I love it.
As far as the defenition you gave as to what you concider metal, often times that is the case, but there are also a lot of subgenres of metal that aren't quite so furious. Some of it is rather slow and dreary, while some is played at fret melting speed....Doom metal being the first, Black or Trash metal typically being much faster.

To me, what makes something metal is two things...First, is the actual music..the manner the music is being played it. Chords, scales, vocals, etc....the second is the feeling of the sound itself. Typically, Metal focuses on dark or morbid themes...even the slower, or the acoustic songs by metal bands are typically dreary or depressing.

[elcuebee]

Now see, for me, I enjoy either end of the extreme, but not the middle kind like you're talking about.

Basically I enjoy the lyrics/feel of the music to be downright violent/completely without morals, or actually not negative/dark at all, just telling a story.

When it's in the middle and is dark and dreary but not "energetic/violent, evil, nonmoralistic" or "energetic/benign" i usually can't get into it. again, no offense or anything, just stating my tastes.

Take Devin Townsend's work. He has two bands;

One (The Devin Townsend Band) is metal, but the lyrics and overall feel of the songs for the most part are actually pleasant, usually just talking about some odd, random subject (like Canada, or Earth Day, or the rain, etc. but not in a dreary way).

Then you take his other band (Strapping Young Lad) and with titles like "Rape song", "Shitstorm", among many others, and with lyrics that directly reference massive genocide, death, rape, murder, psychotic syndromes, mental issues, bipolar disorder (which Devin reportedly has, thus the split-mentality bands), and etc. the music of his 2nd band is extremely vicious.

What makes both of them awesome to me though is that in the first band, when he screams, sings, etc. it genuinely has a sense of "control" or "sanity" to it, but in his latter band, the screams and lyrics and vocals, along with the music itself, seem just other-worldly in how much he absolutely loses it.

Again, not advocating rape or killing or etc. I just think they make interesting topics of discussion in a song and if done right, can make an incredible song.

[Ryuhayabusa]

Back to rap.
I listen to some nerdcore stuff that makes me LoL

MC Lars
MC Chris
Optimus Rhyme

Just a few... mmm Ill listen to anything that i like. Mostly Into Metal Starting with 80's style metal but ive been getting into more melodic Style stuff these days or "Power" Metal, Iced Earth, Dragon Force.

And my new favorite band "In Flames"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WtqgbL8w6Sg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8OubCWNgzgM

OH and to quote strongbad "Death metal does not smile upon the beautiful."

[Original Sin]

Just a few... mmm Ill listen to anything that i like. Mostly Into Metal Starting with 80's style metal but ive been getting into more melodic Style stuff these days or "Power" Metal, Iced Earth, Dragon Force.

There isn't really an 80's style metal...there were numerous styles in the 80's. Hell, it was the hayday of metal...at lot of the styles we still use now were born in the 80's.

Iron Maiden of course is a staple of the 80's, and a lot of newer 'power metal' bands are borrowing that kind of sound.

BUT, also in the 80s, Black Metal was born, which is a farcry from Iron Maiden...also, bands like Celtic Frost were playing Death Metal, and Thrash was still going strong.

And my new favorite band "In Flames"

I don't like In Flames newer studio recordings at all (though their old stuff is pretty good), however I saw them about a year ago and they're pretty powerful live. I'd recommend it if you get a chance to go.

Metal is one of the only genres I've experienced that actually sounds better live...unless you've got one hell of a sound system, you don't get the full experience listening to a recording...not to mention a lot of metal bands have shitty recordings, but kick serious ass live.