Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

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Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Fluffyumpkins » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:34 pm

This chart is often touted as one of the most misrated and well constructed doubles charts Konami has ever done. I'm certainly not the best doubles player around, and I don't want this thread to devolve into an e-peen contest. What I would like to do is analyze the chart to see if it really is as cleanly put together as everyone would believe. I continuously struggle on this, and can't help but think something doesn't quite line up.

http://www.ddrfreak.com/stepcharts/step ... mit=Submit

I've cut out a part of this chart and segmented it into 3 sets of steps. *See attachment below*

#1: You can do this one of two ways.
1. Left foot on p2 right starting crossed.
2. Right foot on p2 right starting normally.

If you take option 1, it isn’t that hard. Option 2 requires a deep cross making the player face away from the screen or really contort the legs. Depending on the option you take, you end up starting differently for part 2.

#2:
1. Following option 1 above, you begin uncrossed with the right foot on p1 left. This is essentially starting crossed. This leads to a similar deep cross facing away from the screen much like option 2 on part 1.
2. Following option 2 above, this part is fairly simply. You’ll begin with the left foot on p1 left.

#3:
1. Starts crossed right foot p1 left. Fairly easy to do.
2. Starts uncrossed left foot p1 left. Has the same deep cross mentioned above.

The only way to make this work without facing away from the screen or doing a full spin would be to add some double steps.
#1 option 1
Use left again to start #2. You can fudge this by adding a down arrow (see added note in chart.)
#2 option 2
On gallop cross section perform double step using right foot twice to start #3.
#3 option 1

Any other path requires the player to either spin, face away from the screen, or do a weird twist that looks like something out of river dance. You might have done this before on charts like Be Lovin’.

So there we go. An hour wasted analyzing 3 sections of this thing, and I'm sure there are plenty of other instances of this same sort of behavior in this song. I encourage people to check my stepping to validate my accuracy. It is certainly possible that I'm doing something wrong, and I'm not sure how to form a proof in this instance.

Is the chart fun? Sure. That's what this game is all about. Is the song good? That's up for debate, but I'd say it is. Will I play it again and again just to see myself get tripped up? Fa sho. Is it a brilliant chart that shows Konami either became drunk on hubris or sacked their best chart artists after 5th? I'd argue it does not. Nothing about it is intuitive, and doing it right requires some level of memorization. It shouldn't be the go-to example for good chart design and has a reputation that I don't believe it rightly earned.

I've spent too much of my evening on this post so please forgive spelling errors. I might clean it up tomorrow.

Thanks for reading! You may proceed with insults and tl;drs.
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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Merk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:21 am

Section #1:

Start with right foot, facing left, uncrossed. Double step at the P1-right to P1-left transition.

Section #2:

This is easy, start with left foot, facing forward, and do the crossovers as normal. Don't cross over on the gallops.

Section #3:

Start with left foot, facing right, uncrossed. Double step at the P2-left to P2-right transition. You'll notice that this is exactly like section #1 and I'm sure it was purely intentional on Konami's part.


I'll admit I rarely play doubles seriously since, sadly, singles is what everyone else plays so I can't say if tricky little spots like this are standard in doubles charts. It probably does require some memorization just like a lot of singles charts do (PSMO, Drop Out remix, Afronova, etc) so it shouldn't come as a big surprise.
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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Fluffyumpkins » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:38 am

Merk wrote:Section #1:

Start with right foot, facing left, uncrossed. Double step at the P1-right to P1-left transition.

Section #2:

This is easy, start with left foot, facing forward, and do the crossovers as normal. Don't cross over on the gallops.

Section #3:

Start with left foot, facing right, uncrossed. Double step at the P2-left to P2-right transition. You'll notice that this is exactly like section #1 and I'm sure it was purely intentional on Konami's part.


I'll admit I rarely play doubles seriously since, sadly, singles is what everyone else plays so I can't say if tricky little spots like this are standard in doubles charts. It probably does require some memorization just like a lot of singles charts do (PSMO, Drop Out remix, Afronova, etc) so it shouldn't come as a big surprise.
So basically don't do the crosses? Double steps are surprisingly not common in DDR. Most charts, singles and doubles, were designed with alternate footing in mind, especially mid stream. HVAM, My Summer Love, and Sync Oni are the only examples that come to mind that make you doublestep mid-stream. You might think Spin the disc does too, but there's a little turn gimmick they use (and use it well I believe.)

Not sure what you mean by Drop Out, Drop the Bomb Challenge, and Afronova.

If you want to double step Moonlight Shadow then it sort of loses the charm it had to begin with (or charm we all thought it had.)
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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Merk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:51 am

You *could* just do everything with alternating footing but I think in this particular chart you're better off just double stepping that one part and playing everything else as usual. You could try to make things more complicated and absolutely force alternate stepping but you're more likely, IMO, to fuck up your PA this way. I'll concede that double-stepping isn't exactly common in singles but a lot of the notable charts will have one or two thrown in there and I think all 2MB songs have a couple.
Not sure what you mean by Drop Out, Drop the Bomb Challenge, and Afronova.
kekekek not sure where you're getting Drop the Bomb Challenge from but the songs that I mentioned all have a little "gotcha" thrown in there that you need to memorize and I'm guessing Moonlight Shadow is no different for people who are really familiar with doubles charts. PSMO's ending crossover runs all have to start on the "wrong" foot, Drop Out Oni requires you to switch your feet during the UD freeze before the ending run, and Afronova requires you to face left during the last URUDUL run for a better transition into the last section. Obviously I am referring to singles here.
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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Merk » Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:33 am

Merk wrote: Section #3:

Start with left foot, facing right, uncrossed. Double step at the P2-left to P2-right transition. You'll notice that this is exactly like section #1 and I'm sure it was purely intentional on Konami's part.
This is wrong, I would start with the right foot, facing right, and going from there all the while crabbing during the transition from the left pad to the right. It's paramount that you do not cross over on the gallops before this run.
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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Fluffyumpkins » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:08 pm

If you do that, you're double stepping it. I can't think of many good charts you have to double step except the rare cases where it is deliberate. It isn't as bad in singles since you can fudge your stepping pretty easy, but really shouldn't be done in doubles. My whole point about this song is that it's received a lot of undeserved praise. It tempts the player to do crosses then punishes them when they do! That's silly.
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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Merk » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:44 pm

1L - Right
1D - Left
1R - Right
2L - Left
2R - Right
2D - Left
2L - Right
1R - Left
1D - Right
1L - Left
1D - Right
1R - Left
2L - Right

I do not see the double-step here!
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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Fluffyumpkins » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:07 pm

I said this is my first post. If you take the set of gallops right before, you would expect that chart artist want you to cross. You even say, "It's paramount that you do not cross over on the gallops before this run." Not crossing over means you'd have to doublestep the gallop! Unless you're playing on psychic mode (doesn't exist) or slowing the song down to something less than 140 bpm, you couldn't possibly know what's coming.

You can like the song and you can like the chart, but you can't tell me the chart is some sort of example of the way doubles is supposed to be. The vast majority of DDR charts go out of their way (on heavy) to ensure players can constantly alternate feet.

A little bit of further analysis reveals that you can't crossover during any gallop. You also need to start with a a doublestep at every, "carried away by a moonlight shadow."
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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Merk » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:25 pm

I mean, I wouldn't want to cross over those gallops anyway and I am not seeing why you would need to double-step those gallops. Just do the LD gallops starting on your left foot, the RD gallop on your right foot, and then start "Section 3" on the right foot. On any given sight-read I do my best to not do crossovers unless I know I'm not going to be put in a shitty position for the next pattern. Singles is the same way, there are plenty of examples of patterns that you have to position yourself in an unintuitive way to do them without double-stepping - the ending of PSMO being the most prominent in my opinion.


Can do you this chart without double-stepping on your first try? Probably not. It's one of those things that you learn after playing the chart once or twice. Did anyone know how to do Leading Cyber singles on their first try? Definitely not.
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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Fluffyumpkins » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:12 pm

Merk wrote:I mean, I wouldn't want to cross over those gallops anyway and I am not seeing why you would need to double-step those gallops. Just do the LD gallops starting on your left foot, the RD gallop on your right foot, and then start "Section 3" on the right foot. On any given sight-read I do my best to not do crossovers unless I know I'm not going to be put in a shitty position for the next pattern. Singles is the same way, there are plenty of examples of patterns that you have to position yourself in an unintuitive way to do them without double-stepping - the ending of PSMO being the most prominent in my opinion.

Can do you this chart without double-stepping on your first try? Probably not. It's one of those things that you learn after playing the chart once or twice. Did anyone know how to do Leading Cyber singles on their first try? Definitely not.
Singles and doubles are totally different. You can practically play most singles songs with 1 foot. Try doing that on doubles and you'll see quickly why double stepping doesn't work. I'm still not sure I can correctly do leading cyber, or even if it can be done correctly. I'll let you make that post.

The issues with the song aren't solely with the gallops either. There are plenty of other instances where you have to take the not intuitive route and do the opposite of what you'd expect. In doubles it sucks extra hard since you really need to commit to pad transitions. It's an obviously sloppy chart, though I guess you could call it... interesting? The myth of Moonlight Shadow being one of the best doubles charts of all time?

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Re: Moonlight Shadow Heavy Double

Post by Merk » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:23 pm

Best doubles chart is CSFIL~SM~ and anyone with a differing opinion is objectively incorrect. B2UOG Oni is a fair runner-up. Has anyone ever really sang a whole lot of praise about Moonlight Shadow doubles? If anything people bitch how it's not a 7 and should be an 8 or 9.
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