Why ITG is better than DDR (not a flame thread)

pkmnx · Post by **pkmnx** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:23 pm

I wanted to put this in this forum because:

A) I feel the future of ITG is inherently linked to the future of DDR, and

B) a few Indiana locations already -only- have ITG (and not DDR).

So, anyway, after having had ITG be my only dance game for a few weeks, I've come to the conclusion that it's better than DDR. Instead of writing this in paragraphs, I'm just gonna make a list of its good bits and shortcomings, and how it compares to DDR's counterpart.

1) Stepcharts. The biggest and foremost reason I've come to favor ITG over DDR. Mostly it's because ITG simply has more variety. Know that xx--xx pattern (sorta-gallops, like Sweet Sweet <3 Magic)? It's one of MANY patterns that DDR didn't use, and ITG makes good use of. Mostly this is because ITG has many different people making their charts, but almost all of those people have years of experience in making Stepmania/etc charts that have been accepted warmly. Add in the fact that around half (maybe more? I'm not sure) of the songs have Expert charts for the good players, where DDR had only a handful, and ITG wins.

2) Difficulty. Both more and less. DDR's 8-footers were mostly "boring" - take Synchronized Love. I like the song, but the chart was just one long run of eighth notes, which was tiring but not hard. Many DDR-8s followed this pattern. ITG has a variety of 8s and 9s, some that are "easier" and some "harder" than their DDR counterparts - and it all depends on your play style. In that way, ITG is better suited for a wide variety of players. In addition, just LOOK at the stepchart for Pandemonium Expert sometime, and maybe Tell Expert, too. Compare to PSMO. Enjoy.

3) Marathon vs. Oni/Nonstop. The key here: mods. The crazy mod combos you get in Marathon are SO much fun, it's hard to explain unless you've played one like KeeL Over. DDR had -one- course like this: Trick. And Trick is easy (comparatively). Oni courses were too strenuous - miss a few and you're done. ITG lets you relax more and enjoy the challenge of the mods, rather than wear yourself out on not getting any BS misses.

4) User interaction. This is divided a bit:
- USB keys: very nice for saving scores, etc. Read more elsewhere.
- High scores for everything: these REALLY add replay value and competition.
- Roxor Games: at their forums, the developers actually SEE your styff, they're not off in Japan.
- English-made: easier for newbies to pick up, since it's not in Japanese.

5) Innovation in general. Mostly because DDR is -done-, and ITG isn't. But don't forget mines (which you can turn off) and hands, which are just plain fun. And as mentioned above, user input can (and will) define future ITG mixes. A contest has already been announced to develop your own stepchart for future mixes, etc.

And now for a few downfalls that I'll admit:

- Lots of songs have stupid tempo changes. (But so do several DDR songs.)
- Many USB keys don't work. (As opposed to DDR's optional memory system.)
- Limited song selection. (DDR had dozens of versions to refine and add.)

Please don't flame here. I don't want to see "ITG sucks" with nothing to back it up. Arguments are what I'm looking for, but constructive ones. If this gets out of hand, I'll just delete it so Ho won't have to bother.

TaQa · Post by **TaQa** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:47 am

Well, in a way, I think I enjoy ITG too much, for when I started playing, I almost immediately quit playing DDR (even though ITG is 1.5 hours away, and DDR is 5 minutes in 3 directions). I dunno, the challenge of ITG is really the aspect I enjoy most about it. While some stepcharts are complete and total ass (See: Euphoria Expert), the rest are for the most part really good (and they make sense....if that makes sense). In DDR I very rarely felt that the steps fit the song really well, however I think the opposite of ITG. The songs and steps make sense together.

About marathons, they're awesome. If you want to truly challenge ones abilities + ability to learn, this is where to do it. Keel Over is a great example (Xuxa on flip = devil, took 3 tries to get past it), and Caddywhampus is pretty good as well (For it tests, in my opinion, the widest range of ability).

Now, I say I quit DDR, but of course that means I still play it, only significantly less (once a week maybe).

CaseyDidder · Post by **CaseyDidder** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:27 pm

Couldn't have been put better. DDR is to easy now, and has been for quite some time.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:32 pm

I've only played ITG a few times here, but I noticed the difference right away. The step charts, even on medium, are more complicated than DDR steps. There's a lot more variations in step patterns, not just the same repetative pattern on the same beats of the song. This also means that I completely suck at ITG, but that's ok. I've only played it twice.

CaseyDidder · Post by **CaseyDidder** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:42 am

Original Sin wrote:I've only played ITG a few times here, but I noticed the difference right away. The step charts, even on medium, are more complicated than DDR steps. There's a lot more variations in step patterns, not just the same repetative pattern on the same beats of the song. This also means that I completely suck at ITG, but that's ok. I've only played it twice.

usually being good in DDR helps you be good in ITG. try the first step first.

Riot · Post by **Riot** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:44 pm

I played ITG once. I liked it, but I hated the handplant stuff. You can turn them off, but then you don't get a high score listing. Handplants are stupid, and I refuse to do them. I will not make myself look like an ass any further than I already am playing a dancing game.

pkmnx · Post by **pkmnx** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:40 pm

Counterpoint: You mentioned yourself that you can turn them off, and if I recall, only a dozen Hard charts, tops, have them. That's plenty of high score space.

About looking stupid...really, only a few Hands make you look like a total retard (cough, Queen of Light Expert). The rest can be pulled off with mild flair if you just do it right. If you're embarrassed in front of people, DDR's not for you anyway.

Pheadra · Post by **Pheadra** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:16 pm

Im intrigued, if I ever come across ITG, then I shall attempt it and make an ass of myself!!!...hurray!

RyogAkari · Post by **RyogAkari** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:52 am

I have a few arguments against ITG, but only one you guys would probably consider "constructive".

Every ITG machine I have seen skips on a regular basis. That might be ok for a free program like StepMania, but if I'm going to pay money to play a game, you better believe that I would get angry if I played a song, had a full combo, then had it skip on me at the end.

Post by **MonMotha** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:06 am

RyogAkari wrote:I have a few arguments against ITG, but only one you guys would probably consider "constructive".

Every ITG machine I have seen skips on a regular basis. That might be ok for a free program like StepMania, but if I'm going to pay money to play a game, you better believe that I would get angry if I played a song, had a full combo, then had it skip on me at the end.

That's the only thing I really have against ITG as well. As an embedded systems guy, that is completely intolerable to me. You can't just take a PC and throw Linux (or whatever) on it and expect to get a real-time system working (DDR has hard real-time requirements).

However, I really like some of the step patterns. There's a few patterns ITG likes to use that Konami didn't use much in DDR (though some of them appear in weird things like the hidden Oni steps or are featured in like a single song). Also, the handplants and mines are just plain neat, if hard to pull off sometimes.

The music isn't bad. I happen to like J-Pop and Eurobeat though, so I didn't have a problem with the music selection on DDR. It is kinda nice to be able to play something else though.

The graphics aren't bad, though they're not anything to write home about. All the mods would be neat if I hadn't seen 95% of them on my ancient version of Stepmania already. It would also be nice to have a continuous color fade note skin (ala DDR's vivid) rather than the solo-style "note" skin that ITG uses. Also, defaulting to "Hallway" is just silly. My guess is they needed to work around a patent or something to make it "non-DDR-like", but it's really a silly way to present the screen by default.

Overall, I'd give it a C+ or B-. I really can't get over the whole skipping thing, though everything else is pretty decent. I could tolerate the skipping maybe even for a console type thing, and certainly when running a program like Stepmania on a preemptive multitasking, non real-time OS (since there's nothing the app can do about it then). However, when you're making something to put in an arcade cabinet for thousands of $$$, you simply must address your real-time requirements correctly. PC type hardware is fine, but what OS you choose really does matter (go run it on QNX or something).

Hopefully they'll have the skips fixed in ITG2 (use RT-Linux or QNX, or just run it on DOS), then I can maybe tolerate playing it. The only reason it really bothers me is because I know just how simple it is to do what they did (throw stepmania in an arcade cabinet, they did it with Tuxracer too), even though doing it "right" would require actual work.

chocobojoe · Post by **chocobojoe** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:19 am

I've talked to one of the head programmers for ITG and he said they're working on fixing the skipping. Once they fix it, they're supposed to replace the hardware or software in every location that has reported skipping problems.

It's most certainly fixed in ITG2, though.

Post by **MonMotha** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:27 am

Do you know what OS they're running it on? I'm guessing Linux since the only other thing Stepmania natively runs on really is Windows (a BSD flavor might be possible as well, I guess), and Windows licenses cost money. Anything with a port of SDL would do, but Linux and Windows are the most maintained.

The problem is that even if they "fix" it, they may not really fix it. When you design a system like this, you're supposed to put in place guarantees that the latency is low enough to do what you need. Normal OSes you're used to (Linux, BSD, Windows, etc) simply can't guarantee that. RT-Linux could, but IIRC there are no 3d drivers for any commercial 3d accelerator newer than 3dfx Voodoo 4/5 (you know, those cards you never heard about) or maybe Radeon 7000 that will work on RT-Linux. QNX would be an obvious next choice, but I'm not sure that it has a port of SDL. At this point, DOS would be easier.

I really should have bounced the ITG machine in Ft. Wizzayne and checked what OS booted on it (if they let that come to the monitor).

Basically, they may be able to make it work right 99.9% of the time even without doing "the right thing", but that's still unacceptable to me from a design point of view. Again, that's only because I have background in this sort of thing (though on a much smaller scale). How would you like it if the computer that deploys the airbags in your car or times the fuel injection or engages the ABS only worked right 99.9% of the time? I'd rather have the guarantee that, assuming the hardware is functioning to spec (something that can be reasonably guaranteed), the software will work correctly 100% of the time. On a smaller system, that's doable. That's the advantage Konami had with keeping things simple for DDR. There's no OS to speak of running on that thing. It's basically a playstation, and as such the game runs on top of the raw hardware.

I realize I may be coming off as an ITG hater. I really enjoyed playing it actually. It's just that the whole skip thing bothers me more than most because of my background in that area. On the whole, it was a pretty fun game (the stepcharts, especially, are way better than DDR, though some are a bit hard for just playing around with).

hascoolnickname · Post by **hascoolnickname** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:48 pm

I am probably wrong, but if I were making it I would have used freebsd for it(or netbsd, depends on personal preference) because you can get it to run on just about anything.

I have not personally run across ITG anywhere, ever. Once I find it I'll try it out and get boo'd off

pkmnx · Post by **pkmnx** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:14 pm

Thanks for a proper constructive argument - and yes, the skipping is one of ITG's major problems.

Personally, I get about one tiny skip every 2 or 3 sets (this is on the Mishawaka machine), and all it does at most is give me an Excellent. Problem that needs to be fixed? Yes; problem that invalidates it as a game? No.

As mentioned, it will be gone in ITG2.

Also, consider Roxor next to Konami. Konami's been making games since the 80s (earlier?), whereas Roxor is a relatively indy gaming company. Hell, if you were to compare ITG to Konami's first few games (all time disparities considered), it'd probably kick their ass. What I'm trying to say is that while ITG has a few minor flaws, its overall "theme" - the songs, the way it presents them, the ideas and philosophies behind it - trumps DDR in every way.

Post by **MonMotha** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:21 pm

Well, now you've poked me. Roxor doesn't make squat. Their games are freely available and opensource. They put it in a nice arcade cabinet and sell it. From what I gather, they sell it at a resonable price for them not having done much work, but they really don't do much. TuxRacer is, well, TuxRacer, and ITG is StepMania. I believe they may have commisioned some songs for ITG, and maybe they did some artwork, but it's StepMania.

The development on their games is done by volunteers around the world. I'm sure they contribute (and anything they change MUST be released back to the community for anything that's licensed under the GPL), but the bulk of their work is done for them. They're not a game design house. If anything, they're more of a publisher. That's fine, but don't go saying they completely made their games, because they didn't.

ITG is certainly fun though, and I hope they fix the skipping. I'd love to have an ITG machine near me, though I'd be saddened if every DDR machine became an ITG machine.

EDIT to address the previous comment: Linux is probably a more popular choice here, or maybe FreeBSD. Stepmania needs a pretty beefy 3d accelerator (GeForce2 is basically the minimum to get anything above 320x200 out of it, though they only need about 320x200 for arcade monitors). There's no drivers for anything other than Linux, Windows, or sometimes FreeBSD for most COTS 3d cards. NetBSD runs on just about anything, at least the kernel, but actually, uCLinux runs on many things that NetBSD doesn't (at the expense of lacking fork() since there's no MMU). Either way, BSD, Windows, or Linux, none of those are real time operating systems. Things you've never heard of (probably) like VxWorks and QNX are real-time operating systems.