Chill out, people...

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Original Sin
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Post by Original Sin » Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:39 am

Nothing involving a lot of people is ever easy. There's bound to be arguments and disagreements here, it happens all the time. However, the thing that separates a civil disgreement and a flame war are the personal attacks, the name calling, the instigation and so on, so forth. If we can get past that, we'd be fine.

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Post by Grubb » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:05 am

Fujiwara Bunta wrote:it is not that easy. enough said.
That's true.
Original Sin wrote:Nothing involving a lot of people is ever easy.
That's true too.
Original Sin wrote:If we can get past that, we'd be fine.
Yes, but the question is... How do we get past that?

Ho tried to create this "post rating" system thing, which doesn't really seem to work in a lot of people's opinion, including mine. But most in this group would agree that something needs to be done to keep things stable.

That's why I proposed this idea...
Grubb wrote:All I'm saying, is lay down a few simple and easy to follow and extreamly leaniant rules. We'd only need one... "No Personal Insults on boards" ...and anyone who would violate this rule, say, 5 times or so, would be banned for like, a week or two. That or something like it would slove 99% of the problems in this group and provide a very basic form of sability for this group. And on top of all that, everybody gets to stay!
Yes, as Joe pointed out, it's not that simple. But I garuntee that doing something like that would, at bare minimum, prevent flame wars from breaking out about stupid shit like weither "Goths or Hot or Not" and other pointless crap.

It's just my idea that I'm passing out. If anyone has any other ideas, then go ahead and say it. I'm sure there is a better idea out there than the one I had.
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Post by Original Sin » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:26 am

I'd have no problem with that sort of system being implemented. It's just pretty sad that we have to make formal rules for something so simple.

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Post by Ho » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:35 am

I completely agree with that sort of precept and have communicated it many, many times. It's fine in theory, but it requires judgement and management. It puts the responsibility of identifying and dealing with offending posts and posters squarely on the moderators and administrators...and ultimately, me.

I may (and sometimes do) disagree with things that are said here, but I do not want to make it my place to pass judgement on each and every post simply because I may not like it. While I may hold the most power here, I represent only one opinion among 100s within this community.

As a non-elected "official," I try to limit my actions to what I hope will keep the community functioning smoothly as a whole and not my own personal likes and dislikes. There will always be dissenting opinions. These kinds of disagreements, when handled maturely, are what often spark the best and most interesting discussions.

Personal attacks, on the other hand, are what throws this community into chaos. People thorwing out insults and people defending themselves overtakes any reasonable, useful, or intelligent discussion going on.

So yes, personal attacks are not welcome here. I shouldn't have to say this, but I have on many occasions. I grow more weary each time I am prompted to. Retaliation is as much a part of the problem as it perpetuates the downward spiral of a flame war (or even creates one where one did not initially exist). Please be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

If I have to take action to prevent these kinds of attacks from disrupting the entire community, I will. But remember that this creates work for me and makes the experience of running this place less fun. I become frustrated with people depriving me of fun, too. It truly saps my motivation to continue putting forth any effort into this site.

Please, just be decent to one another and we'll all be a lot happier.
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Post by Ho » Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:48 am

One final comment:

Rules rob us of our freedom.

This goes for life in general. Most people know what is acceptable. Those who choose to push those boundaries to the detriment of the society they live in cause the society to react by creating rules. The more the society is pushed, the more rules are created. Soon the society oppresses itself under the burden of its own rules.

I don't have hard rules here because I don't want to create this spiral. In the early days of IndyDDR, people didn't need rules to tell them how to behave. People just treated each other with respect by default. Back then, we were more concerned with making friends and connecting with other people who shared an interest in what then was a pretty underground activity. This was what drew me to the game and made me want to contribute to it in the ways that I have--including providing this site.

Of course as the group grew and anonymity increased, we have developed our share of internal conflict. I try my hardest to operate within the climate that initially attracted me. I realize that this is not always appropriate anymore. But a part of me wishes for it and hopes that this community will rise to the challenge.

It is mostly "kids" here--moreso each year than the year before. Young people often get a bad rap for the exact kind of conflict we see unfold here. However, through this community I have seen many who have broken free of this stereotype. I want to see them flourish and I hope that this site can be a place for them to do so.
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Post by Grubb » Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:18 am

Ho wrote:Rules rob us of our freedom.
Having no rules can do the same thing, as people will make their own "unoffical" rules. Which are called folkways, or what probably works best for this group, "Social Mores."

In this case, due to the high consentration of High School kids. IndyDDR tends to share many of the same "Mores" as a High School.

In a high school, when the teachers arn't looking, kids get attacked physically and emotionally, robbing the abused kid of his "freedom." That's why rules are in place in high schools to help minimize events like that. Without athority figures, the abusers will be the ones in control. And they will be the ones with all the "Freedom" leaving the abused with whatever is left.

A similar situation is happening here. The athority figures are essentially letting abusers trample over other and take other people's "Freedoms." In this case by using the same "Conform or be Rediculed" Social More found in most High Schools.

Rules are not in place to be a big mean hand used to crush the little guy and rob him of his freedom. Rules are the double-yellow line painted in the middle of the road to prevent erract drivers from constantly crashing and killing each other.

YES, in politics, there are a LOT of rules that rob us of our freedom. Personally, I think this "Patriot Act" is a prime example. But those rules come about because somebody is looking out for themself, instead of the group as a whole. But for the most part rules are in place to prevent people from hurting each other, either intentionaly or unintentionally.
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Post by Original Sin » Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:26 am

Unfortunately, since this is an internet setting, the people being abused can't do anything about it. In high school, you can just beat someone's ass if they mess with you, but on the net, you don't get that luxury. Not that I'm saying it's a good idea to start fights, but sometimes that's what the bully needs, so they think twice about ridiculing everyone.
In real life, if you screw up, there are repurcussions. If you talk shit about someone, you're most likely going to get your ass kicked. If you break the law, you'll stand trial and be judged.

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Post by fpd » Thu Mar 24, 2005 10:58 am

Well, I'm just gonna say something from experience with forum bm'ing and such. (oh first of all bm= bad manners, for those that don't know)

On my clan's forums, http://www.13tharmy.net/forums.php? , we have had our share of bm problems. Last summer we had a problem between only two members that kept going for a long time, and screwed up the clan a lot. We recently had another incident involving two OTHER people, with a different subject, but the same thing was happening. The first one was only resolved by them leaving. But the most recent has been solved by talking on aim in a serious and sincere manner.
We instated a ZERO TOLERANCE bm policy last fall, and had absolutely no problems with bming until this latest incident (and the policy has been gone for about 5 months).
What we do, if you bm, you're gone. for a day. week. then perm.

We have MANY younger kids who have not yet learned net ettiquite (i hate spelling lol) some as young as 12 or 11. We have problems with them every once and a while, but I've talked to many of them personally on aim and dealt with it in a friendly informative manner. Many people just don't understand the problem with bming, this isn't really the case on indyddr though.

I know it's a pain in the ass to mod forums, as I mod the clan forums and a few others, but I take pride in the fact that bm is not allowed, and is dealt with rather fairly I believe.

But of course, we also have ranks in the clan that we punish people with, so it's easier to control people. (one of the guys who bm'd in the recent incident took an 11 rank hit, ouch)

But yeah, if it comes to it, ZERO bm policy would probably be the best bet. That would pretty much put casey out immediately (sorry case, but that's prolly true) As long as everyone is treated the same, then there should be no problems.
I really don't see how people can be so immature, especially when they don't have age as an excuse.
But really, if you just learn to ignore stuff, it doesn't matter.
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Post by Ho » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:04 am

Grubb wrote:
Ho wrote:Rules rob us of our freedom.
Having no rules can do the same thing, as people will make their own "unoffical" rules.
And those were exactly what I was referring to in the early times I spoke of above. I understand these concepts, Grubb, and I admitted that the continued application of them is not always appropriate anymore. But my point was that rules beget more rules and my fears are:

1) The rules will grow to rule us in their representation of the negative elements they were initially designed to combat. The begin to serve almost as an invitation to "do this because it will really piss us off."

and

2) The rules will require enforcement to have any level of effectiveness. I don't want to be saddled with this (as I have stated time and again). And let's face facts...on the Internet, breaking enforcement is almost as easy as breaking the rules you're enforcing.

I can put a band-aid on the problem, but only the community itself can actually fix it. You have as much (or more) power than I do to solve the problems we have here with maturity rather than simply continuing the cycle of conflict.
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Post by yamcha61 » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:11 am

thank you HO. I have been trying to tell people this for a very long time now. I'm glad you took action and now I hope people all begin to act with humility now.
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Post by The X » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:17 am

yamcha61 wrote:thank you HO. I have been trying to tell people this for a very long time now. I'm glad you took action and now I hope people all begin to act with humility now.
I concur.

Someone had to say it. Glad it was you. Nicely done, Ho man.
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Post by malictus » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:18 am

Here's a very, very simple rule: don't say something about someone in a post on the forum unless you'd say it directly to their face. I'm always amazed when people get so nasty towards each other here, and yet as soon as another DDR event comes around everyone is all smiles and laughs.

It's very easy to insult someone over the net: the only thing they can do in retaliation is throw another insult back, and then the cycle starts. Just use some common sense before you post...

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Post by Ho » Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:18 am

In response to fpd,

I did have a zero tolerance policy here last year. Again, it was only a band-aid. It helped for awhile, but eventually things fell apart again which led to me closing the site in November. It also relies strongly on enforcement...something I have little interest in and limited resources for.

I haven't mentioned it again on this iteration of the site because I really want this community to solve its own problems as much as possible. In the end it's going to be up to the community itself whether it's important enough to keep moving forward in spite of the difficulties that will surely arise.
fpd wrote:But really, if you just learn to ignore stuff, it doesn't matter.
I've said this so many times it hurts. Some people can't seem to figure this out. It's amazing how well it actually works.
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Post by Original Sin » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:53 pm

Sure it works, but if you're repeatedly made the target of personal attacks, there's only so much one person can take. Everyone has a breaking point. I for one have honor, and am proud of the things I do, and the people I associate with. I try to take the high road when I can, but there's a line. And it was defenitely crossed.

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yea

Post by Ray_Clark » Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:55 pm

I totally agree on everyone who posted! :)

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