Homemade Tatsujin Movie

beatmania, beatmaniaIIDX, beatmania III

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Post by sam » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:42 pm

only pal ps2s have RGB output...ntsc does not have a RGB standard..ATSC although has a conform under RGBHV
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Post by MonMotha » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:00 am

NTSC PS2s definately do have an RGB output option. It uses the same lines as the YPrPb component output. There's an option in the PS2 shell to switch it to RGB. I believe the timings may change slightly, or at least the format of the sync changes (it is apparently on the green line, which would be normal for that kind of thing, but it is not in a format that a regular NTSC TV likes, otherwise you could view the green channel in B/W on a TV set), but there certainly is an option for it.

However, that's not what I was planning on capturing. If we want to capture the PS2, we can just use normal YPrPb NTSC timed component.
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Post by sam » Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:47 am

yeah....i think the rgb output doesn't have sync on green like xbox to prevent macrovision work around...there's something they did...it's been so long since i looked at it
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Post by Jizzon » Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:12 pm

I've never played extensively with the RGB output functionality of the PS2, but I can tell you that the Pyro A/V Link doesn't handle RGB (at least without hacks or something). Honestly, as much as anything, I love that you (meaning sam, MonMotha, Ho, and AtomX) are so into video stuff; there's so much I could learn from you with playing around on projects like this. And, well...they're Bemani Tatsujin videos. Vid work and music games? Goodness. I'm free most evenings for the next few weeks, just let me know.
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Post by MonMotha » Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:39 pm

sam wrote:yeah....i think the rgb output doesn't have sync on green like xbox to prevent macrovision work around...there's something they did...it's been so long since i looked at it
Of course, the composite output is still turned on, and you can easily reconstruct the sync signals from the CVBS line :P

You just have to have a monitor capable of displaying things with really low (by PC monitor standards) horizontal syncs: around 15kHz. Even low res, low dot-clock VESA modes hit 30kHz, but that's just because the output is progressive while the PS2/TVs are interlaced, which will halve the horizontal scanrate (and, roughly, the bandwidth of the signal, hence why it's used for TVs).
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Post by sam » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:16 am

sooooooooooo
i was correct when i said ther ewas no rgb output on the ntsc standard :P
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Post by MonMotha » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:29 am

Well, the NTSC standard doesn't use the RGB colorspace, no. However, NTSC region (J and UC) PS2s *do* have an RGB output option. The timings are the same as everything else (i.e. NTSC), but the colorspace is RGB (as opposed to YIQ/YPbPr). This means that even if there's no sync information on the RGB output, you can rip it off of something else (like the composite output).

There are a couple reasons NTSC (and PAL, actually) use a colorspace other than RGB.

One, they wanted to be backwards compatible with old B&W sets. It just so happens that if you come up with a colorspace where one axis is luminance (Y), you can hack together a system where B&W sets will ignore the extra color info and just use that channel. That's what they did.

Two, the human eye is more sensative to luminance than color, and to some colors more than others. Hence, color information can be band-limited more than luminance information without overly noticable loss in quality. Moreover, some chroma info can be band-limited more than other parts. This is why component (YPbPr) looks better than S-Video (chroma is almost not band-limited compared to broadcast/composite), and S-Video better than broadcast/composite (The chroma info isn't as band-limited, though parts are limited more than others).

IIRC, composite video is just NTSC (broadcast style) video at baseband (rather than VSB modulated up to RF) and lacking the FM audio subcarrier.
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Post by Ho » Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:05 pm

It's been a little more than two years since we made the test video in the first post of this thread. Since then I've made a number of tatsujin-style multi-angle tournament videos and tried to continue to improve and innovate the presentation style and format. But most of those have been for Pump It Up, and I haven't really gone back to apply any of what I've learned/done to IIDX...

But, last night (actually, very early this morning) I decided to take a crack at it and see if I could improve upon what we did two years ago. A lot has changed since then: I have much more experience to draw from, the gameplay setup is vastly improved, and I have some better equipment to work with.

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Working with an arcade machine instantly ups the style factor. The shiny control deck and flashing lights look really sweet! I tried to come setup a nicer and more functional layout for the angles. I think I was able to strike a good balance between interest and information. Finally, there are some little transition effects at the beginning and end for a little extra flair.

On a side note, I've certainly gotten better since the first video, but there's nothing particularly remarkable about my performance in this video. I was more interested in just getting some footage to work with rather than whoring a song for an awesome score. :P
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Post by Fluffyumpkins » Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:54 pm

Looks really pro. Good job.

MonMotha wrote: IIRC, composite video is just NTSC (broadcast style) video at baseband (rather than VSB modulated up to RF) and lacking the FM audio subcarrier.

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Post by Fluffyumpkins » Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:57 pm

Also wondering, how did you rig up the lights to work with the music?
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Post by MonMotha » Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:12 pm

Fluffyumpkins wrote:
MonMotha wrote: IIRC, composite video is just NTSC (broadcast style) video at baseband (rather than VSB modulated up to RF) and lacking the FM audio subcarrier.

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Basically, take a composite video signal, add an FM audio signal (similar to FM radio) at 4.5MHz, and then AM moduate (just like AM radio, but with a much bigger signal since we're talking video plus the already FM-modulated audio, rather than just audio) that whole thing up to some TV channel frequency. Now filter off most of the lower half of the signal, since when you AM modulate, you get two copies (one above and one below the carrier frequency) - this is called VSB modulation. The result is a broadcast style NTSC video signal. You can do the reverse to recover it, and that's what your TV does, though probably with a few extra steps.
Fluffyumpkins wrote:Also wondering, how did you rig up the lights to work with the music?
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World's fanciest playstation controller adapter, that's how.

The halogen lights up top are mapped to keys, with some persistence, and the neon is lighted by bass detection from the audio itself. If you stop playing, the halogens will stop lighting up.
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Post by Jizzon » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:00 am

Brian, you're such a pimp :P

Very sharp...you wouldn't settle for anything less, of course. The fantastic halogen glint from the metal by the keys really does add a certain closed studio feel to it.

So what do you think of the video, in terms of layout? You always seem to have a way to make the next thing better than the last, so what would you possibly do to improve this style? What would you like to experiment with, what works for you the most, and so on. You NEED to make a few more of the Pop'n ones too!
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Post by Ho » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:53 am

So many questions! ;)

The video isn't even 12 hours old. I haven't had a lot of time to dream up ways to go even farther...yet. :D

As I noted earlier and you picked up on as well, shooting the arcade hardware with its shiny metallic surfaces and flashing lights adds a lot of visual interest without any additional production efforts. Let's face it, Konami built a gorgeous machine that's pretty cool to look at no matter how you shoot it.

In terms of layout, I'm pretty satisfied with what I came up with. It seems a lot more functional that the previous example and leads your eyes to the various elements without being distracting. By comparison, the old one was just a mashup. I feel like your eye kind of has to scan around to see how all the elements work together whereas this new one flows much better.

I made some attempts to get the note columns to line up with the physical controls in the overhead angle like I had done on the pop'n tatsujin test two years ago. The combination of the control layout of IIDX and the screen layout of the game doesn't lend itself quite as well to that setup. So instead I tried to strike a sizing balance. The control deck is very wide and spread out. I tried to keep it large enough to see without taking over the whole frame. I have a feeling that working with a 7-key video will be easier than this 14-key example. We did shoot some 7-key footage in this session, so I'll try to put together next.

Ways to improve? I think I could benefit from a little better ambient lighting. The wide shot especially has some noise in it from the low lighting. That angle was shot with my old camcorder that doesn't handle low-lighting conditions quite as well as the newer.

However, even the overhead shot is a bit dark. My concern though would be washing out the lighting effects of the machine with additional ambient lighting. I probably also should have set manual gain on the overhead camera. If you watch carefully, you can see the automatic gain going all over the place as the lighting in that scene changes...a lot.

I also considered backing the wide shot up a little bit to include more of the marquee lighting. The issue with that is how to keep brightly flashing lights in one part of the frame from blowing out the image while the rest of the frame--that's darker--doesn't disappear into blackness. Already you can see that the balance between the monitor and the rest of the shot is a bit off in terms of both brightness and color balance.

As for experiments and things I like, the big one on this was the transition that repositions and crops the game video while sliding in the camera angles. This happens at both the beginning and end of the video. It's completely unnecessary, but I thought it would be a cool effect.

Pop'n...yes. The overhead shot will certainly benefit from the spiffy paint job my Ransai received since the last videos were done two years ago. I'm not sure what to do with the wide shot though since I don't have a pop'n arcade machine available. I think having the machine in the wide shot looks a lot more interesting than a plain old televison, wall, or some other background. Maybe I could swing the shot around and show the player from the front, although I have some trepidation about the faces that I (or others) might make while playing.
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Post by Amp Divorax » Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:45 pm

This is most professional looking tatsujin vid for IIDX I've seen and I've watched the IIDX Bible DVD.

Personally, I wish I had the capability to do some high quality vids like that.
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Post by Ho » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:28 pm

What is this IIDX Bible DVD? Should I see this?

As for making videos...come visit and we shall make some. I'll be happy to donate some production time. Your actual gameplay is likely to be more impressive than mine anyway.





On an unrelated side note, I was just watching my video and I have noticed that I raise my hands quite far above the keys while playing (at least my right hand...I can't really see the left from that angle). I'm appear to be striking the keys with considerable force. That would tend to explain the callouses I'm starting to develop on my fingertips.
Last edited by Ho on Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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