Arka, buy this!

GuitarFreaks, DrumMania, keyboardmania

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Post by Arka » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:12 pm

Excuses, excuses. :P

S'okay, tangents are good for you. At least you didn't ask me what a <*facepalm*> was. :wink:

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Post by malictus » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:13 pm

Chiming in late here...

I've taken piano lessons since I was in 2nd grade, so I was excited to know there was a keyboard-based music game. I've only played Keyboard Mania a few times (at Dance Beat Arcade in Nashville <RIP> :cry: ). It's definitely a lot like 'real' keyboard playing. I found the easier levels frustrating, since you aren't playing the 'right' notes at all. So I skipped up to the more advanced levels --- then everything clicked and you can start a song and realize 'Hey this song is in F minor' or whatever, and it's somewhat easier. I did find myself thinking that actually reading a staff would be MUCH easier, though. If I actually bought a home version and tried to get serious at it, I'd want to download everything in score form and memorize it....

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Post by Arka » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:17 pm

malictus wrote:I found the easier levels frustrating, since you aren't playing the 'right' notes at all.
This is the #1 thing that gets me about IIDX...
malictus wrote:...I did find myself thinking that actually reading a staff would be MUCH easier, though. If I actually bought a home version and tried to get serious at it, I'd want to download everything in score form and memorize it....
This is what I'm afraid I'll end up doing. :?

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Post by Ho » Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:42 pm

malictus wrote:I found the easier levels frustrating, since you aren't playing the 'right' notes at all.
I've heard similar comments from drummers playing DrumMania.
malictus wrote:If I actually bought a home version and tried to get serious at it, I'd want to download everything in score form and memorize it....
I've also heard things like this before with regard to KBM...

These are music simulation games afterall. As games, they cannot really rely on knowledge of the activities they are simulating if they expect to be able to reach the masses. Of course I understand that you both realize this. However, I just wanted to take this opportunity to point out something I've observed about this.

These games have both a musical element and a game element. I've seen great drummers who are unable to grasp the gameplay of DrumMania. I've seen great pianists who flat out can't what amounts to a digital player piano scroll.

However, given what I know about Arka's piano abilities and her demonstrated skills at beatmania, I think that KBM is a good fit for her and that she'd enjoy it.
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Post by Arka » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:02 pm

Ho wrote:These are music simulation games afterall. As games, they cannot really rely on knowledge of the activities they are simulating if they expect to be able to reach the masses. Of course I understand that you both realize this. However, I just wanted to take this opportunity to point out something I've observed about this.

These games have both a musical element and a game element. I've seen great drummers who are unable to grasp the gameplay of DrumMania. I've seen great pianists who flat out can't what amounts to a digital player piano scroll.
Hear, hear. (BTW, it's actually less complicated than a standard format of player piano scroll, since it includes no information about dynamics or note length (?).)

Which band was it who had their drummer try Drummania (after contributing a song to some version) and flat-out couldn't get her to pass a song? Don't remember, must look up.
Ho wrote:However, given what I know about Arka's (nonexistent) piano abilities and her (likewise nonexistent) demonstrated skills at beatmania, I think that KBM is a good fit for her and that she'd enjoy it.
Fixed... (sorry, couldn't resist)

But we'll find out soon enough just how well I do or don't take to KBM... assuming my workload lightens somewhat by the end of the month. If it doesn't, I'll still get to try it soon, but my definition of soon may have mutated beyond recognition. 8)

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Post by danc1005 » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:13 pm

Ho wrote:I've seen great pianists who flat out can't what amounts to a digital player piano scroll.
SCORE ANOTHER HO TYPO FOUND BY DAN!

I'm assuming you meant "can't play what amounts to..."?
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Post by Arka » Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:22 pm

dance1005 wrote:
Ho wrote:I've seen great pianists who flat out can't what amounts to a digital player piano scroll.
SCORE ANOTHER HO TYPO FOUND BY DAN!
Dude, it doesn't matter. It was funny the first few times, but I think if you plan to keep doing this until it becomes funny again you're in it for the long haul. Even I am not this O/C... you're making me look bad. :wink:
dance1005 wrote:I'm assuming you meant "can't play what amounts to..."?
I read it as "read" or "grok," but to each his own.

By the way, I neglected to mention this in my first post, but Ho - thanks for nudging me towards KBM at the right time. Now the wait for the fateful package begins. :D

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Post by Ho » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:43 am

Arka wrote:By the way, I neglected to mention this in my first post, but Ho - thanks for nudging me towards KBM at the right time. Now the wait for the fateful package begins. :D
I take it this means you scored yourself a set? Did you snag a good deal?

Sadly, I do not know of a score tracking website for KBM, so any friendly competition between us will likely have to be rather informal. Not that it matters too much. I don't suspect I'll have much chance against you anyway.
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Post by sam » Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:34 am

ho smells and wears fuzzy bunny slippers

(it's on)
insert code compile execute return

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Post by malictus » Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:56 am

Ho wrote:These are music simulation games afterall. As games, they cannot really rely on knowledge of the activities they are simulating if they expect to be able to reach the masses. Of course I understand that you both realize this. However, I just wanted to take this opportunity to point out something I've observed about this.

These games have both a musical element and a game element. I've seen great drummers who are unable to grasp the gameplay of DrumMania. I've seen great pianists who flat out can't what amounts to a digital player piano scroll.
Yep, that's true. However, in some ways, you can view playing a game of either DrumMania or KeyboardMania as an alternate method of 'reading a score'. You're looking at different visuals, but the end effect is exactly the same as if you were reading a traditional music staff. There is a learning curve associated with learning to 'read the score' for a music-game, just as there is a learning curve for reading a music staff.

Now that I think about it, Karaoke Revolution works the same way; it's a alternate 'score' for vocalists. I can imagine a hypothetical song being sight-read by two different bands. One group is reading from a traditional score, and the other group is following synched-up music-game patterns. I wonder which one would do a better job?

Of course, there's a few details I'm ignoring, such as the fact that tempo is designated and inflexible when you're following a music-game score. But it's an interesting question nonetheless...

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Post by Arka » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:02 pm

Ho wrote:
Arka wrote:By the way, I neglected to mention this in my first post, but Ho - thanks for nudging me towards KBM at the right time. Now the wait for the fateful package begins. :D
I take it this means you scored yourself a set? Did you snag a good deal?

Sadly, I do not know of a score tracking website for KBM, so any friendly competition between us will likely have to be rather informal. Not that it matters too much. I don't suspect I'll have much chance against you anyway.
You must have missed the name of the buyer on this guy. (Or, in case I've never mentioned it around here, 'Arka' is a nickname for 'Arkaaito' - one that helps cut down on people assuming I'm male. And yes, trust me, that's a problem on the internet. :wink:)

I thought about holding off for the beatmania+supersession set here, but I suspected its final price would be a bit too high... and I was right, apparently. (Well, sort of - I actually lowballed its expected price by a good $100!)

Good deals are always relative, but to my tastes, yes, I'd say it was a pretty good deal. The closing prices of the three I considered were:

KBM controller + KBM 1 & 2/3 (i.e., KBM bundle): $212.51 shipped :?
KBM controller + KBM 1 & 2/3 + the generic Drummania controller + the GitaDora games I don't yet have + a few random other games: $248 shipped 8)
KBM controller + KBM 1 + generic Drummania and GuitarFreaks controllers + a couple of the older GitaDora games + some IIDX games which I have + most of the 5key beatmanias: $601.76 before shipping :shock:

If those prices don't seem entirely linear, you're right: the price of the one I bought was depressed by the presence of the other bundle (which closed almost 24 hours later). This always happens on eBay when similar semi-rare items are listed - the vast majority of the bidders will choose to bid on the item that closes later, inflating its price and depressing the other's. You'd think that the sheer predictability of this phenomenon would make it go away after a while, because more people would notice it and gamble that they'd get a better price by bidding on the earlier auction... but no, it's still here. Also still here are the time-of-day, day-of-week and length-of-listing sweet spots. The mind boggles.

[/eBay vs. ideal economy ranting]

As to friendly KBM competition... don't worry, I have quite a bit of friendly IIDX competition to catch up with. :( :lol:
Malictus wrote: I can imagine a hypothetical song being sight-read by two different bands. One group is reading from a traditional score, and the other group is following synched-up music-game patterns. I wonder which one would do a better job?
Depends. Do the vocalists have relative or absolute pitch? If they have absolute pitch, I can guarantee you that the musical score will be much easier for them. If they have relative pitch, I'm almost equally sure that the music-game score will prove easier.

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Post by Ho » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:14 pm

malictus wrote:
Ho wrote:These are music simulation games afterall. As games, they cannot really rely on knowledge of the activities they are simulating if they expect to be able to reach the masses. Of course I understand that you both realize this. However, I just wanted to take this opportunity to point out something I've observed about this.

These games have both a musical element and a game element. I've seen great drummers who are unable to grasp the gameplay of DrumMania. I've seen great pianists who flat out can't what amounts to a digital player piano scroll.
Yep, that's true. However, in some ways, you can view playing a game of either DrumMania or KeyboardMania as an alternate method of 'reading a score'. You're looking at different visuals, but the end effect is exactly the same as if you were reading a traditional music staff. There is a learning curve associated with learning to 'read the score' for a music-game, just as there is a learning curve for reading a music staff.

Now that I think about it, Karaoke Revolution works the same way; it's a alternate 'score' for vocalists. I can imagine a hypothetical song being sight-read by two different bands. One group is reading from a traditional score, and the other group is following synched-up music-game patterns. I wonder which one would do a better job?

Of course, there's a few details I'm ignoring, such as the fact that tempo is designated and inflexible when you're following a music-game score. But it's an interesting question nonetheless...
You are precisely correct on these points and perhaps said it better than I did. The point I was trying to get across is that there is a game element as well as a music element to these games and that skill at these two elements may not automatically transfer in all people.

For instance, I know musicians who don't play these games well even though they can play the instruments being simulated. They simply cannot acclimate themselves to the interface (i.e. the note scroll).

And on the other hand, while I am adequate at games like KBM and DM, I am still generally lost if I just sit down at a piano or a drumset sans game--in spite of the fact that I can read music. The instruments were made accessible to me by the familiar (to me) Bemani interface, but the skills I gained through gameplay have not automatically applied themselves to my (small) music knowledge or the real world instruments.
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Post by Ho » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:25 pm

Arka wrote:You must have missed the name of the buyer on this guy. (Or, in case I've never mentioned it around here, 'Arka' is a nickname for 'Arkaaito' - one that helps cut down on people assuming I'm male. And yes, trust me, that's a problem on the internet. :wink:)
You are correct. I missed that. I knew about that auction, but I thought it had closed before we resumed this thread (I kinda left it hanging out there for awhile). And then I didn't look again after we resumed this discussion.

I'm glad that you snagged it, and I think it was an excellent value. Also, while the home DM controller kinda sucks, it comes with a stand that is also compatible with the KBM controller. This is a good thing since the KBM controller doesn't come with a stand. Fortunately/unfortunately, the CS versions of GF/DM/KBM do not support Super Session, so you should never need the stand on both the DM controller and the KBM controller simultaneously. (GF/DM do session though)

I'd be curious to see Aerobics Revolution...just as something different. At any rate, we should try and get together for a jam session sometime.
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Post by Arka » Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:58 pm

Ho wrote:...
I'm glad that you snagged it, and I think it was an excellent value. Also, while the home DM controller kinda sucks, it comes with a stand that is also compatible with the KBM controller. This is a good thing since the KBM controller doesn't come with a stand.
That was a consideration, yes. While I have plenty of stands for full-size instruments, I'm not sure what I'd use for a two-octave keyboard controller (except maybe my theremin stand, which would be sacrilege).
Ho wrote:...I'd be curious to see Aerobics Revolution...just as something different.
Yes, I wasn't sure what to make of that one. I'll try it out and see whether it's worthwhile. I suspect I won't much care for it, but I'll probably keep the forum posted no pun intended anyway. Now, if it were Acrobatics Revolution, THAT would be interesting... :wink:
Ho wrote:At any rate, we should try and get together for a jam session sometime.
Hmmmm... sounds like potential fun. I'd love to try it once I get the controllers (and once I figure out how to use my 5-button controller with GF, or give up and buy one of those, too). :D

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Post by Ho » Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:04 am

Arka,

Have...you...played...KeyboardMania...yet??????//??/????//slash/??????/?
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