Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Don't be a stranger (or a lurker)...introduce yourself here!

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Merk
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Posts: 8179
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:33 am
Location: Bloomington / Ft. Wayne
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by Merk » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:49 pm

Man, you have some weird beliefs!

You should kill yourself because you are hurting the planet and because guilt guilt guilt guilt guilt guilt
Image

User avatar
SailorFlora
Standard
Standard
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:45 pm
Location: Indy
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by SailorFlora » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:54 pm

Nah, I'd be content to just let my genes end with me.

But, yeah, humans are over-running the planet. If things continue as they are, the population will balloon unchecked while also slowly starving themselves and other species to death because of fewer resources. Would it surprise you that I agree with some of the VHEMT?

One of the best parts of the site is the one that covers Biology and Breeding, which includes my favorites: the Why Breed? chart and the Breeder Bingo card. C: Great, but very, very long read.http://www.vhemt.org/biobreed.htm

User avatar
Fluffyumpkins
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6574
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:53 pm
Location: Da Butt Hut
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by Fluffyumpkins » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:39 pm

Merk will not read it. Bet $1?
Music is a special thing because everyone is wrong on everything but it all works out in the end and we all get high as shit.
Image

User avatar
Merk
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Posts: 8179
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:33 am
Location: Bloomington / Ft. Wayne
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by Merk » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:40 pm

Holy. Shit.

Are these the type of people that fucking bomb nurseries?

I read it all BTW
Image

User avatar
SailorFlora
Standard
Standard
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:45 pm
Location: Indy
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by SailorFlora » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:41 pm

Hmm, nah, because I don't think he will either.

ETA: We were both wrong. What happen to dollar??

ETA2: Um, no. That was a group of so-called animal rights activists. Says this http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/008090.html. And it seems they were just threatening. Still ridonk.

ETA3: And what's so bad about the page I linked? It appears very intelligently written, and doesn't seem to have any advocating of violence against people or babies. I'm just...I don't understand how you could have come the conclusion you did. But oh well.

User avatar
SailorFlora
Standard
Standard
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:45 pm
Location: Indy
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by SailorFlora » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:50 pm

Merk wrote:You should kill yourself because you are hurting the planet and because guilt guilt guilt guilt guilt guilt
No, killing yourself won't help. Increasing human deaths will not improve population density. Many people are advocating an increase in the death rate to reduce human population numbers. However, increased death has historically increased births. Promoting reproductive freedom, economic opportunity, and education will shrink our masses faster and nicer.

It’s hard enough just to get people to consider not breeding. Advocating suicide, by any method besides old age, would be a particularly hard sell. There’s no way we could convince enough people to kill themselves to make a difference, especially after we’re too dead to talk. Suicide doesn’t set an example others will follow.

Death comes soon enough -- far too soon for many of us. After working most of our lives, a dozen years of retirement isn’t too much to ask. Those years may be dedicated to humanitarian and environmental causes.

Shortening an existing person’s life by a few decades doesn’t avoid as many years of human impact as not creating a whole new life -- one with the potential for producing more of us.

We have a responsibility to help the world as much as we’re able before we die. Leaving the work for others would be irresponsible.

This is a cause to live for, not die for.

User avatar
Merk
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Posts: 8179
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:33 am
Location: Bloomington / Ft. Wayne
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by Merk » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:09 pm

Hmm...

Well that Knight guy makes at an aboslute minimum a sound argument but he makes the assumption that having a child won't bring happiness ( or "good" in the utilitarian sense) to the parents and obviously the child. I know you're a stickler on the fact that people delude themselves that children bring them happiness and that their happiness isn't "real" but I honestly disagree with that notion. I mean, how do you define happiness? An argument can be made that literally anything that makes you happy is somehow delusional or selfish.


He makes the argument that we have no obligation to the future generation which is all well and good but just because there is no obligation that should not mean that it's amoral to have kids. You can turn the argument around and say that we have no obligation to the planet or any other species on Earth.

I guess my point is that you can argue either way on the ethics of having kids but I'd hope that most people who follow this idealology would agree that denying people the right to have kids is incredibly unethical if only on the grounds that people have a right to make bad decisions. I suppose that's why they're all about the voluntary extinction and not the forced extinction.
Image

User avatar
SailorFlora
Standard
Standard
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:45 pm
Location: Indy
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by SailorFlora » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:42 pm

Right, it is a voluntary movement. But I'll get to that later. I need to address something first.

By the very nature of reproduction means that those born don't have a choice in the matter. No assumptions there. And what about the instances of abuse and neglect? I'm sure those things don't bring happiness to the child.

You disagree with the notion that children don't bring happiness? Because there's clearly evidence that it is NOT TRUE. Even if it were, it's probably because the only people who got a happiness boost from becoming parents ware fathers.** The researchers gently phrased this with, "the pleasures associated with parenting may be offset by the surge in responsibility and housework that arrives with motherhood." In other words, having a kid is a lot like having a boat: It's way more fun if you get to name it after yourself, but have staff on hand to do most of the hard work of keeping it up.

The most thorough parenting study came out in 2005 and looked at data gathered from 13,000 Americans by the National Survey of Families and Households. "In fact, no group of parents—married, single, step or even empty nest—reported significantly greater emotional well-being than people who never had children. It's such a counterintuitive finding because we have these cultural beliefs that children are the key to happiness and a healthy life, and they're not."*

Besides, “happy” is a complex construct, an ever-changing barometer, and the ultimate in subjective standards: you’re only as happy as you say you are. Typically, parents, but most often mothers, are always under scrutiny for every little decision they make, so of course they won't let people in on the truth. If you admit that kids and parenthood aren't making you happy, it's basically blasphemy. From baby-lotion commercials that make motherhood look happy and well rested, to commercials for Disney World where you're supposed to feel like a kid because you're there with your kids, we've made parenthood out to be one blissful moment after another, and it's disappointing when you find out it's not."

Yes, I know, people will keep having kids regardless of what I may think or say. I can't tell anyone what they can or can't do, and in return, the least I expect is the same.

If you still want to argue against it, then I guess we'll obviously have to agree to disagree.

Sources
**http://www.good.is/post/parenting-makes ... -re-a-dad/
http://nymag.com/news/features/67024/
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-23/livi ... =PM:LIVING
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... tion_.html
*http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... happy.html
Last edited by SailorFlora on Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SailorFlora
Standard
Standard
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:45 pm
Location: Indy
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by SailorFlora » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:01 pm

Merk wrote:Hmm...
He makes the argument that we have no obligation to the future generation which is all well and good but just because there is no obligation that should not mean that it's amoral to have kids. You can turn the argument around and say that we have no obligation to the planet or any other species on Earth.
I'm not sure I agree with him there, but if the message is that reproducing is amoral to get things under control for us and for the planet, then so be it. I'd much rather have a level of population equivalent to pre-Industrial Age, but that simply isn't feasible. Really, if we could just do away with organized religion, I think it would fix a lot of problems. :D

User avatar
Merk
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Posts: 8179
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:33 am
Location: Bloomington / Ft. Wayne
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by Merk » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:03 pm

So you just wrote a couple of paragraphs trying to make a point and then end your post saying that your point doesn't matter?
Image

User avatar
SailorFlora
Standard
Standard
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:45 pm
Location: Indy
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by SailorFlora » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:16 pm

Merk wrote:So you just wrote a couple of paragraphs trying to make a point and then end your post saying that your point doesn't matter?
Oh, is that what I did? Not at all. I was expecting you to try to argue your opinion more. Just wanted you to know that I disagreed with it. How the hell is that saying my point didn't matter?

User avatar
Merk
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Lady Banned Son of Switzerland
Posts: 8179
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:33 am
Location: Bloomington / Ft. Wayne
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by Merk » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:32 pm

After all's said and done, happiness is a personal thing. No social science study is going to make one person happier just because it says they should be. You just cannot generalize when it comes to individual emotions and values.
Image

User avatar
SailorFlora
Standard
Standard
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:45 pm
Location: Indy
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by SailorFlora » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:56 pm

You are wrong.

User avatar
Fluffyumpkins
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6574
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:53 pm
Location: Da Butt Hut
Contact:

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by Fluffyumpkins » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:21 pm

You bump this thread every few months with some new way to troll Danii. Next time you do, I'm going to start trolling Jenn on Facebook. Is it that you want to move out, but don't want to be the one to ultimately make the decision? I cannot imagine why else you would want to be so antagonizing.
Music is a special thing because everyone is wrong on everything but it all works out in the end and we all get high as shit.
Image

User avatar
Riot
Heavy
Heavy
Posts: 5360
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:58 pm

Re: Welcome SailorFlora to indyDDR

Post by Riot » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:50 pm

Image
Image

Locked