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Post by WhiteDragon » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:08 pm

I'm pretty certain Flakk has seen more stepcharts than you have, and if Jason did his job halfway decently, there should be some very fun, and some very hard charts in this game.

I'm interested in the road trip, but I'd have to have a date and be able to make sure it would work for me.
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Post by FLAKK » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:22 pm

All I will say is that unless it was on the final build of Pro, every one of the videos on YouTube is old as dirt. BTW, Treame Vook of the War cannot hold a candle to Pro's boss songs.
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Post by lgolem » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:22 pm

liquidblue aka DBV wrote: I have not seen pump pro approach anywhere near the difficulty of something like this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtS0uK8pKCo
That song is on Pump it Up Pro, ALL of the songs the premiered on NX are on there, and those are the hardest songs on Pump, and on top of that most of the "boss songs" off the older pumps are on Pro.


http://media.rhythmatic.net/archive/Pum ... -final.htm

AND wi-ex-doc-va which is harder than Treme-vook of the war is on Pro...so there are infact the same difficulties of regular pump.
AND Treme-vook of the war is on Pro

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Post by FLAKK » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:29 pm

......
Last edited by FLAKK on Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MonMotha » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:43 pm

Of course, TVOTW isn't actually that hard, even on Nightmare, on any mainline pump, either. Bemera is hard. Chimera is hard. Wi-Ex-Doc-Va is moderately hard. Dignity is moderately hard. LIADZ2 is moderately hard. All those are harder than TVOTW.

Pump is pretty much right at the edge of what is hard while still being even remotely doable. The incredibly low number of people who can pass Bemera NM and Chimera NM are examples of this.

The problem ITG had was that most of the "hard" charts were also incredibly dumb. Case in point: Vertex^2. There are a few that are decent, of course, but many of the hardest charts are also utterly retarded.

Now, with many of the charts on Pro being made by people who actually know WTF they're doing, Pro may not have that problem, but I'm not sure the charts can be made appreciably harder than those found on NX without getting into the realm of completely unplayable for the vast, vast majority of players or the realm of "utterly retarded".

The charts aren't what I worry about with Pro. The ITG influence is. There is a surprising amount of work that goes into Pump other than "omg smash zee arrows!", and that's one of things I like about the game (and is also one of the things that attracted me to arcade DDR).

Unless everything has a nice background video, a nearly full complement of difficulties, and there are songs with charts other than arrow walls, it's just another ITG, but with a different stage layout. I don't have anything against ITG per se, but it just doesn't attract me to play it like DDR and Pump did (and still do!).
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Post by liquidblue aka DBV » Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:46 pm

FLAKK wrote:All I will say is that unless it was on the final build of Pro, every one of the videos on YouTube is old as dirt. BTW, Treame Vook of the War cannot hold a candle to Pro's boss songs.
Saw the version in vegas, released there late august, watched people play and didn't play myself because it really looked like PIU, except;

-no awesome backgrounds for new (ITG) songs
-nothing really new; same PIU songs, same ITG songs, maybe one or two new songs that were generic
-songs weren't really that impressive, honestly

I mean, when ITG came out, it was cool and all because it was a much harder version of DDR.

When this came out, it was like PIU + ITG... which really added nothing new to the table. Barely any new songs, not really an increase in difficulty overall, and pretty much just PIU with ITG songs and some PIU songs. :/

Just saw this (he posted after i started my post);
MonMotha wrote:Unless everything has a nice background video, a nearly full complement of difficulties, and there are songs with charts other than arrow walls, it's just another ITG, but with a different stage layout. I don't have anything against ITG per se, but it just doesn't attract me to play it like DDR and Pump did (and still do!).
EXACTLY
WhiteDragon wrote:I'm pretty certain Flakk has seen more stepcharts than you have,
where does this assumption come from? i've played every single version of ddr there is since 2000, played almost every version of PIU, played all the charts in ITG1/2...

...and i've downloaded well over 7,000+ stepmania files, since 2000 (again) on delight delight, DWI, and then stepmania, none of which were from the arcade games, and still have around 4,000 on my computer in the back for play, as well as having made around 35 or so simfiles of my own.

Add into the fact that i've played on quite a few hacked/modded DDR extreme machines with custom stepcharts, and i think that claim is pretty incorrect. Not saying FLAKK has seen less stepcharts than me, but to assume that i've barely seen any is just wrong.

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Post by Jason Dread » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:34 pm

It's quite obvious to me that you have no idea what the hell you're talking about, so you might want to end this discussion before you end up looking like a jackass all over again, a la that music "debate" thread.
liquidblue aka DBV wrote:They were just random backgrounds, just like ITG, basically.
Really? So is that why I've got the guy who made the BGVids telling me that each background video is not only unique to the song, but most were also quite involved, and examples of such are easily cite-able, so it's obvious you didn't spend that much time watching that game to begin with.
liquidblue aka DBV wrote:pump pro is hilarious because it's called "pro" yet it's leagues easier than the original pump.
You are absolutely correct and incorrect with this one. If you want to measure difficulty with stupid gimmicks such as unreasonable and uncalled for double tempo-ing, streams of single-panel jacks, split-legged drills, triple/quad/quint mayhem, and 16th note chains of turning away from the machine, moving laterally, then turning around to face the screen again, then yes NX is more difficult in the aspect that it throws more bullshit gimmicks at you than anyone would ever want to see in one mix. It's also those bullshit gimmicks which entirely keep people from playing most of the new content on NX to begin with.

But if you want standard chart for chart comparison, Pro has an overall easier CZ yet harder NM set up on any traditional (read: good) AM songs Pre-NX, but even then there are obviously numerous difficult charts for every level of play. It's quite safe to assume that by watching you saw a horribly poor sample of the game content since something such as this simple such as this has apparently missed your obvious unmoving stare at the game.
liquidblue aka DBV wrote:When this came out, it was like PIU + ITG... which really added nothing new to the table. Barely any new songs, not really an increase in difficulty overall, and pretty much just PIU with ITG songs and some PIU songs. :/
Nothing new to the table, huh? 52 new songs (more than any amount Andamiro has ever put into its' product) isn't anything new? What about the filling in of missing modes of Andamiro content? Or what about the revivals of old fan-favorite songs that have stopped being used in mainline Pump with new modes filled in? I could also mention about how there are charts from still used mainline Pump songs that have exclusive new charts to Pro until NX2 arrives.

As far as no increase in difficulty, I think it's quite evident that you are not well versed on any aspect concerning the difficulty of Pro songs or the difficulty on mainline Pump staples.

Tream Vook of the War Nightmare is apparently hard? What a joke. It's also a miserable comparison when you bring up a stepchart which has at least a minute longer duration going for it over the rest of the New to Pro songlist. If you're going to start making baseless accusations do yourself a favor and at least understand what you're talking about beforehand.
liquidblue aka DBV wrote:Insert whiny stepchart rant here
I don't think anyone gives a crap about this, or your musical opinions here. It's pretty safe to say you've overstayed your welcome here, and any place you decide to post that I've seen turns into some long-winded rant where you do nothing more than fail to convince other people of your over believed self worth.

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Post by WhiteDragon » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:12 am

liquidblue aka DBV wrote:
WhiteDragon wrote:I'm pretty certain Flakk has seen more stepcharts than you have,
where does this assumption come from? Blah blah blah OVER 9000!!!1! blah blah blah
First off, I'm talking entirely about Pump Pro stepcharts. This topic is about Pro, isn't it?

And the assumption comes from the fact that Flakk is a good friend of Jason (see above post), who was involved in the development of Pro and it's stepcharts.
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Post by liquidblue aka DBV » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:26 am

Jason Dread wrote: Really? So is that why I've got the guy who made the BGVids telling me that each background video is not only unique to the song, but most were also quite involved, and examples of such are easily cite-able, so it's obvious you didn't spend that much time watching that game to begin with.
Um, I watched those videos. Please go watch a Pump It Up video to see a video that actually "is unique to the song". Having backgrounds with shadows of dancers, and then suddenly an ocean, and then suddenly some sparkly shit, and then some stars, switching on every 4th beat, is FAR from a "unique background".

Again, please go watch some Pump It Up music videos to see a REAL unique music video, something that directly follows the lyrics (if there are any), something that has nice, solid artwork, so on.

And I would love to see one that was "quite involved". Every one of them i've seen I could make in a day or two.
Jason Dread wrote:You are absolutely correct and incorrect with this one. If you want to measure difficulty with stupid gimmicks such as unreasonable and uncalled for double tempo-ing, streams of single-panel jacks, split-legged drills, triple/quad/quint mayhem, and 16th note chains of turning away from the machine, moving laterally, then turning around to face the screen again, then yes NX is more difficult in the aspect that it throws more bullshit gimmicks at you than anyone would ever want to see in one mix. It's also those bullshit gimmicks which entirely keep people from playing most of the new content on NX to begin with.
That's exactly what I want to measure difficulty by, aka, skill. Sorry that you're not up for hard stuff that's linked to the song's sounds, melodies, and beats. I like to challenge myself. I like to push myself physically.

I would rather fail a song because it was too hard, than pass it because it was too easy. Gives me something to work for.
Jason Dread wrote:But if you want standard chart for chart comparison, Pro has an overall easier CZ yet harder NM set up on any traditional (read: good) AM songs Pre-NX, but even then there are obviously numerous difficult charts for every level of play. It's quite safe to assume that by watching you saw a horribly poor sample of the game content since something such as this simple such as this has apparently missed your obvious unmoving stare at the game.
Ok, then I may have. Regardless of this, my original point still stands that this game offers nothing new to the table as ITG did when it came out.
Jason Dread wrote:Nothing new to the table, huh? 52 new songs (more than any amount Andamiro has ever put into its' product) isn't anything new? What about the filling in of missing modes of Andamiro content? Or what about the revivals of old fan-favorite songs that have stopped being used in mainline Pump with new modes filled in? I could also mention about how there are charts from still used mainline Pump songs that have exclusive new charts to Pro until NX2 arrives.
52 new songs is a lot damn more than I saw on the machine, on song lists, on reports of the game, videos of the game, in person, and so on. Are they unlocks or are you just counting oddly?

Again, revivals aren't new songs. They're called "revivals" for a reason.

Most of what you said there was "charts". You can have 29384738 charts of a song, on 6 panel mode, on 10 panel mode, on 5 panel mode, who cares. I'm talking about *songs*.

P.S. I really hope you're not calling any of the ITG songs new.
Jason Dread wrote:As far as no increase in difficulty, I think it's quite evident that you are not well versed on any aspect concerning the difficulty of Pro songs or the difficulty on mainline Pump staples.

Tream Vook of the War Nightmare is apparently hard? What a joke. It's also a miserable comparison when you bring up a stepchart which has at least a minute longer duration going for it over the rest of the New to Pro songlist. If you're going to start making baseless accusations do yourself a favor and at least understand what you're talking about beforehand.
Didn't say it was that hard. I said that I hadn't seen anything in pump pro near that level. Learn to read and to not put words in my mouth, thanks.
Jason Dread wrote:I don't think anyone gives a crap about this, or your musical opinions here. It's pretty safe to say you've overstayed your welcome here, and any place you decide to post that I've seen turns into some long-winded rant where you do nothing more than fail to convince other people of your over believed self worth.
Sorry, but everyone's opinions are worth something here, and you completely erasing a part of my post and replacing it with "whiny stepchart rant" really does show your lack of maturity, your overwhelming biased fanboyism towards this game, and your lack of ability to see a game for what it really is.

A re-hash of ITG with PIU songs and pad. Doesn't mean it sucks, but that's basically what it is.

Overstayed my welcome here? Sorry to tell you, i'm 100% positive i've been in this community, the IndyDDR one, AND the DDR community as a whole (this board IS called "IndyDDR", so don't say "this is a PIU forum") longer than you have, and I really find it funny that *you* think you have the authority to go around and say who's who and what's what.

I don't even take that upon myself, and anyone who does really needs a reality check.

Long winded rant? Isn't that what you just did? If you don't read someone's entire post, you really shouldn't be replying to it. If you think long posts mean "ranting" or "ignore this" then you really shouldn't be working on a music game, because it means you won't take critique and improve.
Jason Dread wrote:Leave.
No. :D You really take shit way too serious.
WhiteDragon wrote: First off, I'm talking entirely about Pump Pro stepcharts. This topic is about Pro, isn't it?

And the assumption comes from the fact that Flakk is a good friend of Jason (see above post), who was involved in the development of Pro and it's stepcharts.
There is no way whatsoever that you implied that in the original post. Had you done that, I would have agreed.

This also explains the rampant fanboyism that Jason up there has about Pump Pro. Guess he hasn't learned to take critique on his own products gracefully yet, unfortunately. The really funny thing is that at no given time did I actually say that pump pro itself sucked;

I just said that it brought nothing new to the table. If you look at it objectively as just another dance game, it's fine and solid and all that. What gets me is that people are hailing it as the second coming of jesus or something and it's really not bringing anything mindblowing to the table. It's got new stuff, but there are no innovations that really set it apart from everything else out there right now by a mile.

THAT was my original point, but of course, I should have known, someone would take it way too damn personal/serious.

If you're going to be in anything involving creation of something, you need to learn to take critique without flying off the handle, especially if it's something you've made being critiqued.

The entire time I was typing this post and the last one, I was honestly not angry at all; as i've said before, I don't take much on this board to heart, because it's just an internet board, and if you actually get aggravated enough to tell someone to leave, over a single post critiquing your product, that's pretty bad. :( but oh well.

EDIT: Just remembered this too:
FLAKK wrote: Have you played the game? There are some REALLY tough charts in the game. By that, I mean I would rather play Chimera CZ than some of the ones on the final build. The background videos are still there. Also, you should check out Ward's new music: http://www.kyle-ward.com
THIS is how you handle critique. Not OMFG LEAVE THIS FORUM BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE MY GAME. Learn tact and learn not to take shit so serious.

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Post by Jason Dread » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:03 am

This is never about taking anything too seriously. This about you having very obvious inaccuracies on almost every account on something you clearly know nothing about.

It's amazingly easy to notice that you know very little of what happens in the real world outside of your own twisted little sense of what you believe to be right and wrong. Personally I'm sorry you can't accept fact as truth, and that your twisted sense of reality leaves out any and all semblances of rhyme or reason.

You are the epitome of hypocrisy in its' finest and I'm sure you'll have a long and fulfilling life being a miserable husk of where a person should be. I'm glad you think of yourself and your opinions so highly, but to everyone else it's apparent you're nothing more than an annoying little twat.

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Post by liquidblue aka DBV » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:11 am

Jason Dread wrote:This is never about taking anything too seriously. This about you having very obvious inaccuracies on almost every account on something you clearly know nothing about.
Um, where? The only part where I was clearly wrong was on having seen bad charts.

The videos AREN'T amazing, they're easy as pie to make and nowhere near real PIU quality.

The charts on PIU in general ARE fun and hard, that's opinion that you find them to be "garbage".

So on, etc.
Jason Dread wrote:It's amazingly easy to notice that you know very little of what happens in the real world outside of your own twisted little sense of what you believe to be right and wrong. Personally I'm sorry you can't accept fact as truth, and that your twisted sense of reality leaves out any and all semblances of rhyme or reason.
Um, you think that videos that look like they came from DDR 6th mix are intensive and took a lot of work. Twisted sense? Good lord, you like to go overboard on the stereotypes, don't you?

Nothing you said in that past post was fact, as it was all opinion, and so was my post. Your posts are structured to take things really quite serious also, sorry to tell you. :(
Jason Dread wrote:You are the epitome of hypocrisy in its' finest and I'm sure you'll have a long and fulfilling life being a miserable husk of where a person should be. I'm glad you think of yourself and your opinions so highly, but to everyone else it's apparent you're nothing more than an annoying little twat.
Please point out said hypocrisy? Would love to see it. Otherwise, you have no argument.

Oh, now we're starting on personal attacks? And who's not taking this serious?

I think of my opinions highly? I'm not the one telling people to leave, even with having been in this community longer than you, I still wouldn't say that.

Everyone else? Really? You can read minds and the entire board, every single member thinks i'm an "annoying little twat"?
Jason Dread wrote:Leave.
Uh, no, don't think i'll be doing that, thanks. Although at this point I won't be replying anymore in this topic because honestly, for being responsible for a product you're putting out to the public, you really have no form of tact or self-restriction whatsoever, and that's really needed in business.

If you go around telling anyone who critiques your game with thier own opinions to "leave" and not bring thier opinions to the table, and call your own opinions on this subject fact (when the majority of them were about your opinion on difficulty of charts or music videos or etc.), you really shouldn't be making video games, because that means you're incapable of taking critique.

Looking at your other posts on this board, I can see that you do indeed lash out at anyone who talks down on your game. :( But oh well. You can reply to this, but unless it's pointing out my "hypocrisy", i'm not going to reply.

EDIT: and actually, i'd rather just not post in this topic because i don't want to mess it up for people who want to actually discuss it, those of you who were discussing rationally before all of this.

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Post by lgolem » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:09 am

liquidblue aka DBV wrote: and actually, i'd rather just not post in this topic because i don't want to mess it up for people who want to actually discuss it, those of you who were discussing rationally before all of this.
and now you say this after about a page and a half of ranting

You say that this game brings nothing new to the table, ok lets include a kit when you up grade to place another button, no wait, that would be DDR solo mode, ok lets add another button, lets just totally fuck up and already perfectly fine dance game.

They tryed to bring something new to the table with NX which was as Jason said early all gimicks, the only good songs on NX are not even the hard ones. We Goin' Fly (still slightly gimicky cause it is really turny), Fly, and U Inside my Dim Memory all those are not even in the skull rating.

But lets see lets throw Gun Rock a once kick ass song in and make the ending ABSOLUTELY FUCKING RETARD and dare I say Impossible to do standing up, lets just take the Slam chart and make it impossible. Lets take a sweet ass sounding song called Handsome Character that Pass, which has no BPM changes in the songs at all, but what the hell we will run it at 120ish and then right at the end lets jack up the bpm to 240 for the fucking hell of it, just to make it hard. If the gimick of the double tempo was not there that would have been a bad ass chart. 2006 Love Song....tap..tap..tap like 40 fucking times........tap..tap..tap three hold tap..tap..tap.......tap..tap..tap about another 20 more times....3 jump..tap..tap......tap..tap..tap..tap..tap..tap...3 jump..tap..3 jump..tap..3 jump 3 jump.....WHAT FUCKING FUN THAT IS.

Yes it brought something new to the table, stupid fucking gimmicks. Pump it Up Pro brings back the stuff I like, the turny charts (not over turny) with runs in it with no retarded gimicks attached. And not only that but they converted the good ITG songs, and brought new songs in to, AND if I feel like having gimicky fun all the NX songs are on Pro. AND THE BOOBY SONG IS BACK...HOW COULD YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT?

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Post by Pheonixguy » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:57 pm

lgolem wrote: AND THE BOOBY SONG IS BACK...HOW COULD YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT?
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Post by MonMotha » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:26 pm

I will say that I would NOT mind seeing every difficulty (from n00b mode to expert) for every game mode (single, double, half double, 4 corners, 7/8 panels [ala LIADZ2 NM], couple, etc.). That's a damn lot of charts. Of course, they have to be good, too.

If Pro did that, THEN they'd have me VERY interested. However, is half double even a playable mode on Pro?

Having some gimmicky charts is OK. Even NX takes it a bit too far. ITG2 too it way too far.

BGAs need to be full length and full motion, not scripted clips or tile/sprite based things. Exceed set the example with that. This isn't DDR MAX/MAX2/Extreme. There's a "omghuge" hard drive and enough CPU time to decode HD video if they wanted to. Use it. Just don't be too distracting.
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Post by lgolem » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:28 pm

MonMotha wrote:However, is half double even a playable mode on Pro?
Sadly I believe not, that would be cool though.

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