Politics...and the discussion of it

aspen · Post by **aspen** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:09 am

It's the final of the three topics that are inevitable...this is for you Drew

Ah, let's see, my views of politics are....

I dislike politics. To much of how this nation is run revolves around politics. There are some things where politics are necessary, but others where it's not necessary. One place it does not need to be is in Iraq. Personally, and from a soldiers point of view, I think we should leave it up to the guys in charge who are on the ground fighting. If they think it's time to take drastic measure, then that's what we should do...even if that means bombing them. I hate it when the government decides to get involved in something they generally know nothing about. I know what we(the Army) are capable of. If political agenda would just go away, this whole situation could be dealt with in no time...

I don't think we should pull out of there or anything like that. I just think we should leave it up to the ones who know what they're doing and not the guys sitting in a nice office, safely back in the USA.
I find President Bush to be doing a fine job...far better, in my opinion, than Clinton.
Hey, I don't want to go to Iraq, but I will. I think our presence there is necessary for as long as it takes. Just like me being here in Kosovo...

I don't like getting into political debates...so let's just leave this as my own opinion on the whole thing. If you wish to debate with me, you will find yourself putting your foot in your mouth. I don't like to argue...this is my opinion. Leave it be...

This is a place for everyone to express their views and debate(if you must), but not with me. I hope, with this, we can understand each other a little more.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:51 am

I agree with you on what you said about the war. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, but I'm not foolish enough to think we can just pull out and leave it be. We went in, now we've got to finish it. Furthermore, it takes at least 5 years to train their soliders, and get some to non-com status, if I've heard correctly. Bush does not know how to fight a war. The secretary of defense does not know how to fight a war. The generals on the ground do, the commanders in charge of their men do. Yeah, they need to have an overall plan of action from the states, but when it comes to doing what needs to be done, they need to call the shots. If they come upon hostiles, they don't have time to wait for authorization to fire.
It's the same thing that happened in Vietnam. We could have won that war, but it was more beneficial to the government to draw it out, and not let our soldiers fight how they needed to fight, where they needed to fight, and when.
I have a great deal of respect for our military, but not for our government, who seem to enjoy using them like puppets for their own political purposes. I don't like seeing our soliders die over oil, natural gas pipe lines, or whatever it is the feds decide they want next. especially when we have the knowledge and the ability to make alternatives to fossile fuel, but we DON'T because the oil companies have too much political influence in the states.
I almost joined the military, by the way...First I planned on joining as a marine corp. Sharpshooter, then I swayed my interests into joining the Navy Seals. I've been dabbling with combat tactics, espionage and warfare in general for years, so it seemed fitting...However, things in my life changed, and I decided to stay here. I was concidering still joining the Army, and being an interpreter for Japanese, since I had taken two years of it already, but then they said they wouldn't let me take Japanese training, so I turned them down.
So, here I am, pretty much resigned that I'm going to have to start my own island nation someday.

aspen · Post by **aspen** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:11 pm

I actually thought about joining the Navy Seals too, before I joined the Army. However, for reason I can't remember, I joined the Army. I'm glad too...once I went through Basic Training and saw what it was like, I became glad I didn't join the Seals. Reason being that Seal training is, and I'm not exaggerating, twenty times as difficult as Basic Training...and I hated Basic Training. Any person that makes it through Seal training is not someone I wish to mess with...

So, if you start your own island nation, can I be in charge of its military?

ShammerS · Post by **ShammerS** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:25 pm

aspen wrote:Seal training is, and I'm not exaggerating, twenty times as difficult as Basic Training...and I hated Basic Training. Any person that makes it through Seal training is not someone I wish to mess with...

So very, very true. I've family members in the Seals, have seen it firsthand; if you think doing pushups and running all day is bad, trying surviving in FREEZING water temperatures for 8 hours with nothing but your uniform on and no floatation device.

Or, if that's not enough, try holding your breath for 4 minutes, disarm a 'bomb' at the bottom of a deep lake where your ears pop beyond belief, and come back up with enough stamina to take a breath.

No joke.

CaseyDidder · Post by **CaseyDidder** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:03 pm

My best friend when I went to college in Michigan was a Navy Seal. The dude was f'in cut in every angle possible. I'm glad I was friends with him :O

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:07 pm

Yeah, Seal training is intense. However, it was designed not only to teach you the necessary skills, but to bond with your team. I'm glad I didn't join, though...Looking back on it, I'm more fit for a sharp shooter anyhow.

andyisntemo · Post by **andyisntemo** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:24 pm

politics suck.
nuff said.

UberAvonDancer · Post by **UberAvonDancer** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:28 pm

As cool as SEALs are, Ranger are better

. Kidding, two different operations, but SEALs are super hardcore.

My view on politics is rather complicated. I think the gov is a good and needed part of life. I think America should really start living up to its promises though. I think drugs should all be legal (and taxed!), and various other forms of self destruction allowed. We should be allowed to be as dumb as we want to be. Its hard to talk about just politics and not branch into very specific areas.

I think the govt is a basicly good thing, that needs to be looking out for the welfare of our country. If that involves a little military invasion of another country from time to time, so be it. Until the whole world is willing to work together, America needs to support America. And also Americans need to support America. Dissent and different opinions are fine, thats what democracy is all about. But to the people who are just "America sucks, down with America!" I just say Love it or leave it. Either help make it better, or shut up.

Once again, I dont think my opinion made a whole lot of sense, but there it is. In case you missed it, I'm very pro-america. Dissent is not being unpatriotic, not caring is being unpatriotic.

Ebola Gay · Post by **Ebola Gay** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 12:14 am

andyisntemo wrote:politics suck.
nuff said.

Seconded.

I hate politics. I hate it so very much. See, politics would be great if it did what it was supposed to do: act in the interests of the people. But it doesn't, oh how it doesn't. The most obvious example is this whole "war on terror" thing. Why are we there? Seriously. We caught Saddam, Osama's group is crumbling, thousands of people have died from both sides, and for what? So we can "spread freedom to the darkest corners of the world". Yes, freedom through the barrel of a rifle.

Don't get me wrong, I love this place. I love what the ideals country was founded on. And all you military guys, I love and respect you. Risking your life for those ideals is something that should be commended, day after day after day. I've even considered joining up. But when things are run like this, when wars are fought for war's sake, when they're fought for a president's misfounded sense of "religion", then I cannot go with it.

Gah, now I've got a headache.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:24 am

We're there for the oil, and for the political influence. That's really all there is too it.
Yeah, it's all fine and well to fight for the less fortunate, spread freedom and the like, but we only do it when there's something in it for us. There's plenty of countries out there that have it far less than Iraq, so why did we choose Iraq? Iraq has oil. Lots of it. And if we install a government there in our favor, we get first bids on it. I'm aware that countries always fight wars their own interests in mind, however, I don't agree with the government hiding the fact, and trying to disguise what we're actually doing there. It just makes us look like fools.
Now, the soldiers in Iraq? Yes, they may very well be fighting for freedom in Iraq. It's not them I have a problem with, as I've said. It's the people controlling them.
The war in Afghanistan is similar. There is a huge supply of natural gas that came up for grabs in Afghanistan, pre 9-11 time frame. We were poised to take it, and actually had an invasion of Afghanistan set up BEFORE 9-11 even took place. However, when it did, we invaded, telling the country we were avenging the people who died, when in fact, we were going to invade them anyway.
Yeah, the government is needed. without the government, there would be anarchy, and I'm not foolish enough to think that works. Anyone who thinks that anarchy is the answer to America's problems has a hard reality to face. Anarchy is war, which I find amusing, concidering most of the anarchist I've encountered have been pasifists. Odd? I thought so. By war, I mean a war to survive. He with the biggest gun, and the most ammo wins, assuming you can protect your supplies, and you wife and daughters for that matter, if you have any... Anarchy is not a pretty picture.
However, I do think our government needs a serious overhaul. What exactly needs to be done, I'm not sure yet, but I am pretty certain that starting world war 3 is not in our, or the worlds, best interests.

God Of Rock · Post by **God Of Rock** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:57 am

No more war for oil.

There has never been peace in the Middle East,
and there never will be. We need to get the hell
out of there and leave them to their own devices.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:06 pm

That's what I've been saying. There will never be peace in the middle east, ever. And the more we get involved, the more they're gonna turn on us. And we'll never win, you know why? Because we don't have the courage to bomb them back to the stone age..but you know what? They'd gladly do it to us.
I don't want to kill civilians, and I believe we should try other options first, but when that doesn't work? It's us or them. We target any training camps, any centers of resistance, any armorys and supply depots, and wipe them off the face of the map. Casualties? Yeah, people will die. Lots of people. But they're killing us too. War may not 'solve' anything, but they make think twice before messing with us again.

Ebola Gay · Post by **Ebola Gay** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:07 pm

Original Sin wrote:It's us or them. We target any training camps, any centers of resistance, any armorys and supply depots, and wipe them off the face of the map. Casualties? Yeah, people will die. Lots of people. But they're killing us too. War may not 'solve' anything, but they make think twice before messing with us again.

I would rather pull out and "lose" than commit mass bombings. Taking the moral high ground may not win us wars, but we'll still have our humanity intact. I promise you, the day we start bombing indiscriminatly is the day I move to Canada.

Fagulous · Post by **Fagulous** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:07 am

Ebola Gay wrote:
Original Sin wrote:It's us or them. We target any training camps, any centers of resistance, any armorys and supply depots, and wipe them off the face of the map. Casualties? Yeah, people will die. Lots of people. But they're killing us too. War may not 'solve' anything, but they make think twice before messing with us again.
I would rather pull out and "lose" than commit mass bombings. Taking the moral high ground may not win us wars, but we'll still have our humanity intact. I promise you, the day we start bombing indiscriminatly is the day I move to Canada.

If you make the cut anyway, they don't take just anybody, thats what America is for.

Original Sin · Post by **Original Sin** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:32 am

Believe me, I don't want to bomb anybody. However, we started this war, and we now have a responsibility to finish it. If we don't, we'll be dealing with a much larger problem later. The insurgents in Iraq aren't going to just go away. They're going to keep fighting until we kill them, or anhiliate their means to make war against us. Thats how war works. It's not pretty, but it's reality. Also, if we cut and run now, we lose any credit we still have. Look at the rest of the world that doesn't like us right now, if we run away, they're going to think that we're cowards. Some of them will start attacking us or our allies, with the belief that we won't fight back, because when the going gets tough, we pull out.
Yeah, we're a powerful nation, but we can't take on the whole world at once. I'd like us to just leave the middle east alone, but we can't now. We've stirred up a hornets nest, and they're not going to leave us alone until we finish what we started. The only way to do this, sadly, is to either eliminate all of them who take up arms against us, or keep them at bay with the fear that we'll strike at them.
Right now, we need to get the Iraqi government going, and get their military trained, which will take at least 5 years, probably longer. Then, hopefully, we can rely mostly on their military to fight on the insurgents. however, this will not be 100% effective, and we'll still have to maintain a large military presence in the middle east. For now until, well....armageddon, I guess.